Over the years I have heard people talk about weather it is OK, or not OK to practice it within the context of the first series of Ashtanga. One of my teachers was all for me practicing them right before the bridge and the attempts at dropping back. I liked that. However a few others (all the other ones actually) were set on telling me that it interferes with the opening of the chest and the drop backs.
Now, granted, I do not have all the ashtanga books, but I have a few, and I cannot find one mention of weather it is good or not. Matter of fact cannot find one mention of the asana at all, not for primary or intermediate (looked at Swenson and Mahele). I also did some searches on the web, and found nothing. So I turned to the volume II of the Key Muscles of Hatha Yoga.
The handstand opening paragraph says (I translate from my Spanish version of the book) that this posture strengthens the muscles in the shoulder and arms, and it also enhances the shoulder joints stability. He says that it also has beneficial effects on the cardiovascular and nervous system.
How could this interfere with opening the chest?
Does anyone out there know why is it that some teachers are so set against the practice of handstand until something like the end of the second series?
The picture comes from absoluteashtanga.com
The consensus seems to feel that strength works somewhat against flexibility. I have heard it tightens the shoulders more than the chest, personally, and that it's not a good idea to practice handstand until you can grab your ankles in assisted Chakra Bandasana.
ReplyDeleteHmmm... how interesting, chakra bandasana ha?. Even if it did tighten the shoulders I wonder... I have to try it a few times and see what it is I wonder about here...
ReplyDeleteThat's just what one person told me. I do tend to build strength very easily though, and while I'm pretty flexibly NOW, that was a much longer & harder process. Perhaps the advice was particular to me! Not sure.
ReplyDeleteI think I read something about this in Sweeney, let me try and find it. Ok, in his first book he gives the order of learning inversions. Shoulderstand, headstand, fore-arm stand and then handstand. he says you wouldn't normally learn them until after you've mastered Pinca Mayurasana in 2S. However, he adds that as handstand is part of the full backbend sequence it's useful to commence practice of them when you begin Intermediate. His second book, Vinyasa Krama, has a big section on all the different handstands, lots of pictures.
ReplyDeleteI started doing handstands from very early on (probably because I started with the Darby DVD). I've always slipped a couple into my Surynamaskara's. It never stopped me from dropping back or coming up. That said if I do too many of them I start to bulk up a little so I try not to over do it. Given that guy's often seem to start off a bit stronger I figure the extra strength work benefits the girls. Kino goes on about this several times in her intermediate DVD, saying how she had to work on the strength, for example, she recommends jumping through and back cross legged all the time rather than jumping straight legged into poses as the crossed leg version builds strength. She also includes a press to handstand as an Advanced option in the Parasarita's series in Standing. She says something like, 'you may lift up to handstand... ( after pari D) although it's not traditional it can be fun to come up to play around with these advanced options'.
Hi B, yes that is what I guess happens, maybe this advise was also just for "me"... you are lucky to build strenght easily
ReplyDeleteHi Grimmly, thanks for looking that up, interesting that he says not until pinca mayurasana, it is amazing how many different takes there are on this. I suppose on the building strenght, I kind of agree that, for a girl, it might even help to start building the muscle earlier...
I am not sure I could put them in Surya Namaskara, my stamina is not that high, but playing with them in the prasaritas as per Kino could be fun, I actually have secretly tried already, not very successfully yet...
I spent some years at Crunch gym working on upper body strength before I found Astanga. I had already developed this particular "advantage".
ReplyDeleteBut ya... Chris scolds me for going up into handstand with bent arms, and then straightening. It's not work for me at all but he thinks I'm "binding" my shoulders.
I still haven't made the effort to learn to pike into handstand with straight legs, so... Anyway I hardly practice the pose, cause I feel like if I do that I have to do the whole, entire tick tock thing.
hi Claudia
ReplyDeletei could not add much to what Boodi and Grimmly mentioned. it's a pose that scared me at first and which i still do against a wall. in my first attempts i once crushed a pair of eyeglasses by falling over them when tumbling sideways. but it feels good to do an inversion. inversions in general are good for stomach digestion. in my case i probably needed to build upper strength. i do it about 3 times a week these days. i've always admired the guys who can pike into it while doing the Surya Namaskars. i would tumble over if i attempted to do so. once i fell off it flat on my back. ouchie. i still have not learned to pike with both feet into it. one leg leads. i'm not answering much of your question, though. i had heard the same; maybe i had read a discussion about it between Boodi, Karen and Patrick, but i can't remember.
cheers,
Arturo
Hi there...
ReplyDeleteI agree it's a tempting thing to practise. The norm is not to practise handstand until you finish 2nd series, that is when my teacher had me start, and as far as I know Kino does the same. I trust the series and my teachers, and I don't think that doing it earlier would have helped me at all, although I fooled around with it very randomly a bit. I think there are good reasons for nailing chakra bandhasana first, sorry probably not what you wanted to hear!
B, I had forgotten that you actually need to come into the pose with both legs at the same time. you are quite a lucky lady in the sense that you came with the strength already developed... I did a bit of weights before ashtanga but not so much. I can understand how this is also one of those "be careful what you ask for" when you say that you shy away from it cause otherwise you need to do the full tick tock ... that MUST be tiring!
ReplyDeleteArturo, I also enjoy watching those that get into it from the namaskars, it is bewildering to me... feels almost like magic. I wonder when did you start the handstands?
Susananda, yes, it seems that this is the general consensus, not until the end of 2nd, what I am trying to come to terms is the reasons behind this, anatomically speaking, or energetically. I also have faith in the way it all progresses, is just that sometimes I get curious... I guess you "got me" there in the "not what I wanted to hear", sometimes I just want to have fun... but I will stick to the rules (although..... I might fool around with it randomly a bit) :-)
I hop up both legs at the same time, but not a straight pike. I bunny hop & boing it up there...
ReplyDeleteThe tick tock is not so tiring. It's SCARY!! I've gotta be fully, fully, fully focused. Nothing short of 110% will do. I already know I can do it. It's not "required" til end of 4th. Chris seems to think it's not so important now.
The only one who really WANTS me to do it is Rolf, who will probably be my next "asana teacher" if I keep going...
Chakra Bhandasana first ???? We are talking about back bending and grabbing your heels Chakra Bandhasana. I'm curious, in your Shala experience, do many develop their backbends that far? I would have thought not so many.
ReplyDeleteAnd Tick tocking, of which handstand is a part, comes before Chakra B no?
I have John Scott's book with the forward by KPJ saying that it's 'in accordance with the traditional method as I have taught it' . He has handstands after each Navasana! Swenson famously does the same in that Youtube video. I did somewhere read that it had changed though and Kino doesn't do one there in her Primary video . I would have though it changed because of the impracticalities of all those handstands in a busy Shala, rather than for any anatomical reasons, can you imagine : ) Practicing them at home occasionally can't hurt surely .
ReplyDeleteB... 110 % ha? I can't wait!!! Rolf is so advanced, I wonder why he really wants you to do them... Wonder what is it he sees...
ReplyDeleteGrimmly, in the shala where I practice definitely a lot of people practice the hands to heels (from standing) it is encouraged to go deeper and deeprer, even for primary ppl. Don't know about Booduba's shala
I meant Boodiba... I-Touch is not so easy on the typing department...
ReplyDeleteI stand corrected, how curious.
ReplyDeleteIn my shala experience, way more people are doing assisted ankle grabbing long before the tick tocking. The tick also comes way before the tock.
ReplyDeleteThere isn't much to prepare people for the back flip maneuver until they get to Viparita Dandasana in 3rd...
I guess 'assisted' being the key word. Can see how that would make sense to practice with a teacher before tick tocks. Always looks such an extreme/advanced backbend though. My old guy makes me want to do it.
ReplyDeleteBeen meeaning to check again, which is the tick and which the tock?
When I walk my hands in to my feet for assisted Chakra B, I STILL can't pick them off the floor myself. Maybe soon. Christopher switched back to whamming me in there from the air, first left, then right. It still doesn't seem possible when I'm going into it and then somehow I'm there. There's significant twisting going on, like I said.
ReplyDeleteBeing super bendy isn't as important for the tick tocking as a stable handstand though. I think the super bendy can have an easier time learning, but it seems far less consistent if they don't have stability in the handstand as well.
The tick is the first part, handstand to back bend. Once you handstand that's pretty easy. But I see people who do the tick for years and still can't quite work up the leap of faith necessary for the tock. You have to make a decision. You have to REALLY want it.
Half hearted hops don't get you anywhere in this equation!
Boodi, did you see how my old guy does that swinging thing with his arms, would that work for you do you think?
ReplyDeleteFor some reason I'm less intimidated by the tock than the tick, ofton have the urge in a tight UD to give it a go. The tick scares the bejesus out of me, I keep thinking both shoulders are going to dislocate or something. I finally have room now to start work on it though.
Going back to the original question about handstands and anatomy. I was thinking about how Sharath has you lift up off your head in headstand into a fore-arm stand and gets you to hold it for those long slow counts. He does that on his Primary video and I seem to remember everyone groaning about it in his workshops. Isn't that developing shoulder strength in a similar way to handstands?
It seems to depend when the teachers themselves were in Mysore. When I practice with Dena she always has me do handstand after dropbacks.
ReplyDeleteChristopher loves that headstand head lift. I do it every practice and it seems like he doesn't pay attention, but if I DO fall out of it he notices :)
ReplyDeleteWith the tick, all you have to do is relax and give in to gravity. The tock demands force of will. Extreme force of will I'd say. Try them both & report back? !!
I feel like ticking now, feels fun! will be years before I tock... this sounds like a possible post... I am liking it already
ReplyDeleteKevin, I wonder about what you say, you are probably right, there seems to be different versions of asanas depending on the timing of the teachers...
in mysore it's a no-no. i study with dena who encourages the handstand when learning to flip over. it's part of the backbend sequence.- BUT she had to get her backbend sequence approved by guruji first. i used to teach it after the student was able to stand up from backbend. because the flip over is the next place to go. (or tick tocs if you will) it also tends to cure the "fear" of being upside down. i used to think handstands produced tight shoulders, i'm not sure anymore. however, they give lots of energy. before i teach i sometimes do them if i feel tired.
ReplyDeleteThanks Bindifry for that recount... And I am not so sure either (the tight shoulders....). I also find that they give me lots of energy.
ReplyDeletethis is a great blog btw :-)
ReplyDelete