I mean it in terms of camel pose, backbends, drop backs. The dictionary definition does not help... And when I read Maehle's description it becomes even less clear. I am away from home today but if I happen upon a bookstore I will reproduce the bit of the book I mean...
We were lucky enough to have many people comment here and then David Keil (an ashtanga and anatomy teacher) also weighted in, I turned his response into a post which you can read here
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well my english is too poor for helping you
ReplyDeleteMy understanding is that it's tilting. So if your standing side on in frount of a giant clock face you tilt/nutate the pelvis clockwise or anti clockwise, in fact rather than the pelvis it's better perhaps to focus on the sacrum . Clockwise nutation would be something along the lines of MC hammer pelvic thrusts upwards and counterclockwise kind of how you push your bum out a little when settling into Lotus to meditate).
ReplyDeleteInterestingly with Maehle it's kind of counterintuitive because to backbend you would think you'd be tilting the pelvis in a clockwise direction to bend backwards but if i remember correctly, and i think i did a couple of posts on this, he talks about nutating/tilting the pelvis in an anticlockwise direction. What this seems to do is create a space that you then lift up out of and are thus able to bend back more deeply ( it helped mine). I think he talks about this in the advanced approach to kapo. Hope that helps? Somebody with a better grasp of anatomy will probably do a better job and no doubt tell me I have it completely wrong. Now I really must get on that ruddy mat and try some of this in 2nd, been putting off practice all morning, have a glorious day Claudia.
Claudia, did you read in the anatomy of hatha yoga book? in this book it describes the movement of the sacrum separate from the pelvic bones. nutation and counter nutation depending on whether the top of the sacrum is tilting forward of the ilium (the posterior pelvic bones) or top of the sacrum is tilting backward from the ilium.
ReplyDeletewe tend to think of this area as immobile the sacrum moves directly with the pelvic bones at the sacroiliac joint, but there is movement there, it is a joint after all. some people have more mobility, and more ability to control that mobility. these people tend to be the more adept backbenders. but also these people are more prone to SI injury. you win some you lose some :)
quoted from this article:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.dynamicchiropractic.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=39525
"Nutation, as described by Kapandji, is the anterior inferior motion of the sacral base. It is simultaneously accompanied by an ilium or ilia moving posteriorly and inferiorly, with the PSIS as the point of reference for the ilium. Kapandji goes on to describe counter-nutation as the movement of the sacral base posteriorly and superiorly. An ilium or ilia then moves oppositely, in an anterior and superior direction. This nutation and counter-nutation motion of the sacrum is a pivoting type of motion, so that when the base moves forward, the sacral apex (inferior part of the sacrum) moves posteriorly. In other words, there has to be reciprocal and opposite motion at each SI joint between sacrum and ilium."
Dear Claudia
ReplyDeletewow, an anatomy and back bending lesson for today, from Tova's and Grimmly's comments. I like what Grimmly mentioned regarding bending the pelvis counterclockwise in back bends to create more space. I would like to try that next time I'm doing backbending practice.
cheers,
Arturo
Hi again, i just did a little more reading because i had never heard the tilting of pelvis referred to as nutation, however, the definition applies here as well. wikipedia defines nutation as a tilting in the axial plane. so it is used i astronomy as well as physiology.
ReplyDeleteso when you refer to pushing your pelvis forward in ustrasana, i *think* you are referring to moving the pelvisforward to align over the knees. additionally your pelvis can actually tilt either forward or backward as you do this, and the results will vary from one body to another.
@ova, grimmly, lilasvb, Arturo, gracias! I real appreciate your descriptions, what I am understanding is that it is more of a tilt back and forth of the sacrum....
ReplyDeleteThe image of the clock and the clockwise rotation confuses me a bit...
Btw Tova will look at the book
Hello Everyone,
ReplyDeleteI'm hoping that I can bring a little bit of simplicity to this conversation. Tova asked me to weigh in.
There are two movements that are getting mixed together here. First, there is pelvic rotation which is described as an anterior tilt and a posterior tilt. These are defined and discussed from neutral or what is referred to as anatomical position (someone standing upright basically)
An anterior tilt is when the pubic bone moves downward and whenever this happens we naturally make more of a lumbar curve, like a backbend. A posterior tilt is where the pubic bone rises or lifts and the opposite effect naturally happens in the lower back, we reduce the lumbar curve. These movements happen as the pelvis moves around or at the head of the femur.
Nutation and counter nutation are movements that happens at the sacroiliac joint, that is where the sacrum meets the two sides of the pelvis. Nutation (from neutral again) is where the top part of the sacrum would move down and forward relative to the pelvis being fixed in place. Kapandji referenced above describes this as the sacral base moving forward and down. Counter nutation is simply the opposite.
Everyone, unless their sacroiliac joint is fused, does some nutation and counter nutation. The average person probably has somewhere between 3 and 5 millimeters of movement at their sacroiliac joint. In other words, not a whole lot. I'm surprised sometimes by how much emphasis there is on this movement in backbending type poses with such a small range of motion there.
It is always a good idea to consider all of the factors that go into a backbend and not get caught up in the part that moves the least. A good or deep backbend has much more to do with the hip flexors, such as quadricep, adductors, and the iliopsoas being open enough to allow the pelvis to not get jammed up in an anterior tilt and compressing the lumbar region.
Since the question is regarding nutation and counter nutation... when one is in a deep backbend, your pelvis (relative to neutral) is in an anterior tilt. These forces will naturally put a force on the sacroiliac joint and if we look at the movement created there it would be counter nutation. It also possible that the sacrum maintains its relationship with the pelvis and is not doing either, but the forces on it if we took away all of the ligaments somehow, would be counter nutation.
This in no way speaks to what ones intention might be while in the pose though. you might naturally try to undo some of the pelvic tilt, as people do when trying to tuck the tail bone under. this would be trying to tilt the pelvis more into a posterior tilt from an already extremely anteriorly tilted position. So it's not like it's going to put the pelvis into a posteriorly tilted position because you're not starting from neutral. If you do this, it would undo some of the counter nutation and potentially allow the sacrum to nutate slightly.
People who are naturally flexible will naturally have more movement at their sacroiliac joint. They may actually feel this, or control this movement better than the average. I certainly can't argue with anyone's experience.
I also wouldn't suggest trying to get a student to do this movement specifically, it kind of will... either happen or not happen on it's own. However, if someone is dealing with sacroiliac dysfunction or pain, it would then be appropriate to pay more attention to how much or little of this movement is happening.
Peace,
David Keil
"The Bone Man"
David, I am honored by your response and for taking the time to clarify things for us, thank you. I have made your response into a post itself and I will promote it as I believe this will help many of us out there.
ReplyDelete